To Exist or to Subsist, that is the question

In a recent post on the Words of the Ancient Wise blog (shameless plug) one of the participants asked Pam and I a rather deep question. Specifically regarding the nature and reality of Diety. If I may paraphrase the question: "Are the ancient Gods 'real', that is, do they exist independently of us? Or do they subsist, existing in reality as a result of our belief in them?" There are several other possibilities that are not mentioned here, and to be fair, I will bring them up first. In addition to the two mentioned above are, they do NOT exist, but are products of our imagination, they do NOT exist, and are labels we apply to the unknown. However, to get to the answer right away, I believe that while we have interrelated positions in this Cosmos, the Gods exist independently of our  beliefs and existence, and that, hereticaly, we exist independent of theirs.

I am going to wax slightly philosophic before directly responding to the question. The question of subjective and objective reality comes into play with these thoughts. To answer this I will refer back the the founder of Stoicism himself, Zeno. Zeno began by asserting the existence of the real world. "What do you mean by real?" asked the Sceptic.

"I mean solid and material. I mean that this table is solid matter." "And God," said the Sceptic, "and the soul? Are they solid matter?"

"Perfectly solid," says Zeno; "more solid, if anything, than the table."

So in short, if the Gods exist, they must do so in a real way, that is, in a way that is allowed for in our cosmology. A God "everlasting, without body, parts, or passions; of infinite power, wisdom, and goodness; the Maker, and Preserver of all things both visible and invisible" must by necessity reside beyond our universe.

So how do we know that the Gods are real? For me it is the same way that I know justice is real, that love is real, that hope is real. Some may argue that these are 'just concepts' and not real like the table. For purposes of definition, real is something that has real impact on an individual (back to the subjective/objective tension). A table is real, in that it impacts the mind through the sense. Justice, and injustice, impact us in the same way, by providing data through the senses to the mind.

How are the Gods like this? It can be feelings,  but as Scrooge has famously been quoted to say, these might be an 'undigested bit of meat.' More often, in my case, it is the accumulations of a myriad of impressions, insights, intuitions, coincidences and yes, feelings.

Our purpose, and that of the Gods, overlap to a degree. In a real way, we are partners in a particular project. That project is to support and maintain Phusis, life and the possibility of life, in what ever form it may come in. It is to support the natural cycles, processes and changes in the Cosmos that basically keep this delicate balance of Logos and Chaos going.

[Someone I am close to had asked for a sign that they weren't crazy to consider following a particular God, moments later were called out to witness the circling of six golden eagles around the full moon in mid-morning (I was a personal witness to this). Possibly meaningless coincidence, but uncanny when considering the traditional meanings of six, the importance of that bird in relation to the God in question, and the significance of the full moon in relation to the position they felt they were being called to. It was a pretty clear response.]